Arthur Bryant writes:
Fate
I do not believe in fate. Though it is a hard thing to argue, because anything is possible. I mean, I could possibly be wrong, and my actions, no matter how many times I change them, could have been predetermined. But to believe in this idea is to take away a fundamental belief about humanity. It takes away the belief of free will, the belief that we aren’t controlled by anything. If I were to believe that, no matter what I did, the outcome was predetermined from the get-go, I may as well quit the game. There would be no use playing. To believe in Fate would be to destroy a person’s life.
If Fate were real, then there would be no ambition, because people would know that, no matter what they did, their life was decided. It would take away the thirst people have for advancement; it would make people unenthusiastic because they wouldn’t care about anything because life was decided for them. It’s the same thing as Communism in the way that your income and prosperity is already determined and you cannot raise it by working harder because it is not technically your money. Therefore, why work harder? There’s no reason to, for you do not benefit from it. Admittedly, it is a flawed analogy, but it’s similar in principle. But, Fate is a dangerous idea and I just cannot believe that my life has been planned out and I cannot do anything about it. That just boggles the mind, and I do not believe that, because it would destroy the basic tenets of a human’s life.
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16 comments:
Predestination has gotten a very bad rap from history and modern Christians. More people should read Luther's original work on the subject. Anyway, predestination does not mean that some external force (let's just say God) grabs and forces you to act according to his plan; he is not some evil puppeteer. Predestination simply says that God made you the way you are, and he knows how you will act without forcing you to do anything.
We have free will, but God is greater than Time, and thus is present both inside it and outside it. Therefore, God sees all times, though he is uniquely and perfectly present in each one. HE doesn't (in general) have to force anyone to do his bidding or to love him; he made them so that they would be that way, and can see all of their life at once. He's also very real and present in every moment of that life.
This has risked sounding over-religious, but Fate is simply the idea that we are set on certain paths from birth. Who does the "setting" of those paths, if not a higher being? Fate, predestination, and Plato's Unmoved Mover (God) are inextricably tied together.
But what I was saying was that if someone believes in Fate and that his or her life is predetermined, then there would be no reason to challenge oneself because, whether you tried hard or not at all, it would not affect the outcome. Therefore, there would not be any ambition to achieve something greater because you will achieve what has been determined for you to achieve, your actions notwithstanding.
I have a question for King Theodred. Does your take on this mean that the actions of a terrible person, or at least a person who did terrible things,were know by God ahead of time? If so, why would he allow such actions?
By the way, I like the distinction you make about God being both present inside and outside of Time. That's an important, if mind-boggling idea.
Sorry, I forgot to mention that I was Tyson. I made this account a while ago.
The question of why God allows evil is one that I cannot answer, as I am not He. However, there are two things to be said. The first was by Martin Luther, who said that "God is like a carpenter working with warped wood," but manages nonetheless to create beauty and salvage some of what was supposed to be lost.
The other argument is that God allows minor evil to befall us in order to punish and warn us of greater evil. You slap the hand of a child too near the pot of scalding pot of water, because the suffering that results from the slap is far less than the suffering that would come from the water. Similarly, God punishes us to keep us from far greater pain and suffering later.
Also, responding to runrunrun(?), we do not know our future, so as far as we know, our future IS a blank slate. Only God actually knows what will happen, so, until then, we can only try our best, knowing that our success or failure was planned; but not discouraged from trying again. It might be the plan for us to succeed on our 32nd attempt, but we must still attempt 31 times before that.
In response to Tyson,
But what if I decide not to try 32 times? If my future was already decided, it wouldn't matter if i tried 32 times or none at all, the outcome would be the same.
Also, if one were to believe in Fate, then it only follows logically that they would not believe their future is a blank slate.
This is Arthur, by the way.
We are all on earth for a reason. There would be no point in existence if we were all just thrown on earth to live. If you believe in fate then that does not mean it doesn't matter what you do. Yes, your future may be known by some higher power, but you do not know what that exactly is. I agree with Tyson that fate and God are tied together. If it was God that placed us all here then he must have done it for a reason. We are not here so that he can watch us walk around.
What Tyson is talking about now is theological fate. Some, however, say that there are forces other than God determining Fate. An example of this would be the belief of determinism. This idea argues that the acts of the present and passed, when combined with the preexisting laws of nature determine the future of man. This still preserves the idea of "free will." Another example would be idea that the environment, the stimuli that it provides, or even our genetics themselves, are all types of Fate. Though I do agree with Tyson's theological fate argument, I just find it interesting how Fate can be interpreted into affecting every action of our life. Even though it is strange to accept that our lives are determined, I've always believed that there are forces out there greater than us (God) imposing their will on us.
I am going to have to agree with Arthur. The whole idea of my life being planned out takes away the fun in life. It sort of makes it seem like my thoughts are thoughts that were meant to be thought and not thoughts that I just happen to think. I know that sounds very complicated, but basically fate makes everything meaningless almost. Everything we do would be done because it is meant to be done. We wouldn't be doing things because we enjoy but rather because we are meant to. There is no excitement in life if that is how everything works, and it makes life so much more unbearable. It is the experiences we gain from doing new things that make life interesting. If our lives were planned out by fate, then there would be nothing interesting in our lives.
Johnny,
Under my definition of Fate, it won't matter what I do, because my path has already been determined.
I am going to agree with
Arthur as well. I just can't bring myself to accept my destiny already being determined. This would mean that every decision I make would have absolutly no impact on my life. What then seperates me from a robot or drone? Humans were created with a "free will" to make decisions, Ithink these decisions effect the outcome of our lives. Arthur makes a great point when he said,
"Therefore, there would not be any ambition to achieve something greater because you will achieve what has been determined for you to achieve." The to control the outcome of your own life gets people out of bed in the morning.
ford said...
I agree with Arthur's response to believing in faith. I think it would be terrible to blame fate for all the things that happen in ones life. This would cause most people to believe that no matter how hard they work fate will still determine what happens. This type of belief as Arthur pointed out would be similar to communism in which everything is predetermined. Communism has been fought against and proven to be a failure. While there are countless examples of people overcoming the odds to succeed
ford said...
I agree with Arthur's response to believing in faith. I think it would be terrible to blame fate for all the things that happen in ones life. This would cause most people to believe that no matter how hard they work fate will still determine what happens. This type of belief as Arthur pointed out would be similar to communism in which everything is predetermined. Communism has been fought against and proven to be a failure. While there are countless examples of people overcoming the odds to succeed
Question: What kind of God would "plan" for some people to fail?
Job in the Bible asked a similar question. God's answer was fairly straightforward: "Who the heck are you to question my morality? I am the God of Creation, things are good or bad because I say they are so. You cannot even begin to comprehend me, so what gives you the right to judge me?"
You're right. God did say that to Job. I still wonder, what kind of God speaks like that? Doesn't man have a right to know why he suffers. God is beyond man's understanding; however, shouldn't God have to explain himself? I've got a really good edition/translation of Job with a terrific foreword that you might want to read. Ask me.
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